Radioactive Blue Cheese Curd Potion Drop Rate
*Editor’s Note: This is a guest post by Wong Yu Lian, an avid mousehunter. I thought it was quite relevant to the articles already here. If you want to write a guest post, feel free to email me at rohan[at]furoma[dot]com.
Radioactive Blue Cheese Curd Potion Drop Rate
Radioactive blue cheese curd potions are dropped in the Laboratory and are used to make radioactive blue cheese. These cheese are used in Mouseleum and Catacombs to attract Forgotten and Shadow mice. These potions are dropped by steel, bionic and granite mice uncommonly. Each potion can convert a certain amount of brie or superbrie plus depending on your rank.
For example, if you are a master, you can convert up to 30 superbrie plus at no cost into radioactive blue cheese or up to 10 brie into radioactive blue at 500 gold per piece. The figures for each rank can be found here
However, there is a trend to how many potions are dropped by different mice. The bionic mice can drop up to 3 potions, the granite mice can drop up to 2 potions and the steel mice can drop up to 1 potion. The number of potions that is dropped by the mice though depends on the total luck of your trap. Different trap setups give different luck and the highest luck setup possible in game is the Deathbot (Chrome Edition) with Magma Base and lucky shield on. However, my analysis will only look into common trap setups that are used.
Assuming that you all have the lucky shield (if you don’t, go do any free offer), the different trap setups that are commonly used are: (In order of luck)
- Hitgrab Rockin’ Horse + Magma Base (25 + 10 + 7 = 42)
- Hitgrab Rockin’ Horse + Dehydration Base (25 + 4 + 7 = 36)
- A.C.R.o.N.Y.M + Dehydration Base (18 + 4 + 7 = 29)
- NVMRC Forcefield + Dehydration Base (12 + 4 + 7 = 23)
- Swiss Army Mouse Trap + Explosive Base (10 + 0 + 7 = 17)
- Digby Drillbot + Explosive Base (5 + 0 + 7 = 12)
These are the more common trap setups that are found in the laboratory. Do take note that the luck is the factor that affects the drop rate of potion, as shown later. The power or trap has nothing to do with it. Setup 6 acts as a setup to show the difference between a high luck and a low luck setup. For the comparison of luck for each setup, refer to MhWiki for any base, like the Wooden Base. Just scroll down and arrange the traps in order of luck and compare.
For your reference, whenever I mention a trap or base, if it has the same luck, just substitute it in. I only included the more common traps and bases and excluded those which are not that common, like the Mouse Mary O’Nette which has 5 luck and wooden base which has no luck.
Traps:
25 Luck
18 Luck
12 Luck
10 Luck
8 Luck
5 Luck
No Luck
Bases:
4 Luck
No Luck
Hitgrab Rockin’ Horse + Magma Base (42 Luck)
This trap setup yields a very high luck yet is easy to obtain if one has been here when Ronza came during her visit in October 2009. Hitgrab Rockin’ Horse can easily be obtained by all ranks and the Magma Base can be obtained by most journeymen or above. Do take note that only ronza’s traps and base can reach this high luck for now.
Same Luck setup:
- Refer to List above
Hitgrab Rockin’ Horse + Dehydration Base (36 Luck)
This trap setup would be more common due to the cheese effect (Insanely Fresh) of the dehydration base and how easy it is to obtain this trap and base.
Same luck setup:
- Snow Barrage + Aqua Base w/o Shield
Acronym + Dehydration Base (29 Luck)
This setup is the highest amount of luck that anyone can get without the traps of Ronza, with the expection of Aqua Base. It is also the most popular trap setup, having more than 2000 hunts in the log summarizer.
Same luck setup:
- Ambush + Magma Base
- Hitgrab Rockin’ Horse + Dehydration Base w/o Shield
NVMRC + Dehydration Base (23 Luck)
A balance of high luck and power, both the NVMRC and Ambush are popular among hunters of Master and Grandmaster ranks. With combined hunts, more than 2500 catches were recorded.
Same luck setup:
- Horrific Venus Mouse Trap + Wooden Base with Target
- Rhinobot + Aqua Base
Swiss Army Mouse Trap + Explosive Base (17 Luck)
This setup is usually used by masters who are not rich enough to buy NVMRC Forcefield Trap. Both low in power and in luck, it might take quite a long time before the hunter can farm enough potions before venturing into mousoleum.
Same luck setup:
- Harpoon Gun + Magma Base
- Zugzwang’s Last Move + Magma Base w/o Shield
Digby Drillbot + Explosive Base (12 Luck)
Actually I included Digby Drillbot and all bases with no luck, including tribal base and wooden base with target, since the hunts are too little. It acts as a low luck setup for some of the people who are unable to get the donor shield. I also included Ambush with bases of no luck and no shield, to make the drop rates more accurate.
Same luck setup:
- Ambush + Explosive Base w/o shield
- Ancient Box Trap + Aqua Base w/o shield
- Rhinobot + Dehydration Base w/o shield
Statistics
| Luck | Catches Recorded | Total Potions | Avg. Pots | Avg. Pots: Bionic | Avg. Pots: Granite | Avg. Pots: Steel |
| 42 | 701 | 180 | 0.256776 | 0.290598 | 0.300885 | 0.182573 |
| 36 | 425 | 107 | 0.251765 | 0.302521 | 0.273333 | 0.192308 |
| 29 | 1964 | 453 | 0.230652 | 0.298305 | 0.239519 | 0.165951 |
| 23 | 2525 | 521 | 0.206337 | 0.250000 | 0.218962 | 0.156708 |
| 17 | 394 | 78 | 0.197970 | 0.203540 | 0.260870 | 0.132867 |
| 12 | 873 | 149 | 0.170676 | 0.231034 | 0.139932 | 0.141379 |
Rational
Looking at the average potions per mouse caught, the trap setup with the highest luck has the most number of potions. However, it does not take the lead in every section. It yields fewer potions from the Bionic mouse and Steel mouse as compared to the 36 luck trap setup. However, only 425 catches were recorded for the 36 luck trap setup, meaning that the results might not be as accurate as other setups, which have more catches recorded.
Possibly inaccurate results: Luck 17 and Luck 36 Setups.
Luck 17 trap setup has results that show it yields more potions from the Granite mouse more than luck 29. However, the overall trend is still obvious. The higher the luck, the more potions the mice would drop.
Since the CRE is off by alot, the below portion does not apply anymore
<s>Choice of Cheese
Using the catch rate estimate, I calculated the amount of potions you will get for every 100 hunts with 2 most commonly used types of cheese, Brie and Swiss. I also took the value of each radioactive blue cheese as 500 gold to let you decide which cheese, swiss or brie, to use in the laboratory in order to make more profit. This only applies for masters and grandmasters who are using sinister portal or ambrosial portal. Bottomless-grave users and hunters of rank legendary or above should also use brie if they have their Obelisk of Slumber/Obelisk of Incineration or A.C.R.O.N.Y.M. This comparison assumes that you will be using brie to convert into radioactive blue cheese instead of super brie.
Hitgrab Rockin’ Horse + Magma Base
. Swiss: Brie:
- Bionic: 16.04 (4.66 potions) 17.25 (5.01 potions)
- Granite: 17.63 (5.30 potions) 18.96 (5.70 potions)
- Steel: 17.85 (3.26 potions) 19.20 (3.51 potions)
- Total Pot: ~13.22 potions ~14.22 potions
- Profit per hunt: 341.74 275.12
Difference in profit: 66.62
Difference in potion: 1 potion
Hunts needed to make up for each less rb: 500/66.62 = 7.51
Rb needed to earn the same amount of gold: 100/7.51 = 13.3 (Grandmasters can only convert 12 maximum)
Verdict: For hunters below the legendary, use swiss cheese, it will bring you more money in overall.
Hitgrab Rockin’ Horse + Dehydration Base
. Swiss: Brie:
- Bionic: 15.49 (4.69 potions) 16.66 (5.04 potions)
- Granite: 17.08 (4.67 potions) 18.37 (5.02 potions)
- Steel: 17.34 (3.33 potions) 18.65 (3.59 potions)
- Total Pot: ~12.57 potions ~13.65 potions
- Profit per hunt: 340.3 280.34
Difference in profit: 59.96
Difference in potion: 1 potion
Hunts needed to make up for each less rb: 8.34
Rb needed to earn the same amount of money: 11.99
Verdict: Grandmasters and above should use Brie while masters should use swiss cheese. However, grandmasters can choose to use swiss if he/she does not have enough money for brie since the difference is minute.
A.C.R.O.N.Y.M + Dehydration Base
. Swiss: Brie:
- Bionic: 15.92 (4.75 potions) 17.25 (5.16 potions)
- Granite: 17.46 (4.18 potions) 18.96 (4.55 potions)
- Steel: 17.64 (2.93 potions) 19.20 (3.18 potions)
- Total Pot: ~11.86 potions ~12.89 potions
- Profit per hunt: 363.31 315.39
Difference in profit: 47.92
Difference in potion: 1 potion
Hunts needed to make up for each less rb: 10.43
Rb needed to earn the same amount of money: 9.584
Verdict: Only legendaries have the ability to have A.C.R.O.N.Y.M, so it is quite obvious that you have to use brie. If you are going to use the portals at mousoleum, you will still gain more money using brie. BRIE!
NVMRC Forcefield + Dehydration Base
. Swiss: Brie:
- Bionic: 15.49 (3.87 potions) 16.66 (4.17 potions)
- Granite: 17.07 (4.18 potions) 18.36 (4.03 potions)
- Steel: 17.31 (2.93 potions) 18.62 (2.92 potions)
- Total Pot: ~9.32 potions ~11.12 potions
- Profit per hunt: 343.90 284.22
Difference in profit: 59.68
Difference in potion: ~2 potion
Hunts needed to make up for each less rb: 8.38
Rb needed to earn the same amount of money: 11.936
Verdict: Use brie. Everyone. You get far more radioactive blue cheese curd potion using brie as compared to swiss, which offsets the higher cost of brie.
Swiss Army Mouse Trap + Explosive Base
. Swiss: Brie:
- Bionic: 13.21 (2.69 potions) 14.33 (2.92 potions)
- Granite: 14.68 (3.83 potions) 15.93 (4.16 potions)
- Steel: 15.01 (1.99 potions) 16.28 (2.16 potions)
- Total Pot: ~8.51 potions ~9.24 potions
- Profit per hunt: 268.49 205.25
Difference in profit: 63.24
Difference in potion: ~1 potion
Hunts needed to make up for each less rb: 7.91
Rb needed to earn the same amount of money: 12.65
Verdict: Use swiss. Unless you are legendary rank, use swiss to earn more gold in the long run. This trap is really puny against the mice here, and the luck is pathetic, so as soon as possible, change to a better trap, like ambush.
Digby Drillbot + Explosive Base
. Swiss: Brie:
- Bionic: 14.92 (3.45 potions) 16.22 (3.75 potions)
- Granite: 16.42 (2.30 potions) 17.85 (2.50 potions)
- Steel: 16.63 (2.35 potions) 18.08 (2.56 potions)
- Total Pot: ~8.10 potions ~8.81 potions
- Profit per hunt: 330.61 273.75
Difference in profit: 56.86
Difference in potion: ~1 potion
Hunts needed to make up for each less rb: 8.79
Rb needed to earn the same amount of money: 11.38
Verdict: Masters should use swiss cheese for higher profits. Grandmasters and above can use brie instead to gain more radioactive blue cheese.</s>
Being my first time doing an analysis for mousehunt, I hope you all like it! Do drop me an email if you have any doubts about my analysis or advice/comments on how to improve. You can also drop me an email to do an analysis on something else too. I will consider and read your comments or email. My email address: wyl223366@yahoo.com.sg. Thank you! Oh I forgot, and if you want to use some part of my analysis, do drop me an email to notify me too. But do not copy my analysis and say it’s yours. Thanks.
-Wong Yu Lian
Tagged as comparison, potions, radioactive blue + Categorized as Analytics Articles
Wong, thank for this excellent article. It’s well-written and a great help. ^__^
The timing of you writing it is amazing. Did you see my discussion post, “How often do you get RB Pots in the Laboratory?”
http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?xid=mousehunt_strategy_4&app_id=10337532241&c_url=http%253A%252F%252Fapps.facebook.com%252Fmousehunt%252Fboards.php&r_url=http%253A%252F%252Fapps.facebook.com%252Fmousehunt%252Fboards.php&sig=ed9d0b75af619c89e5ea993816dc22d0&topic=3466&post=27054#/topic.php?xid=mousehunt_strategy_4&app_id=10337532241&c_url=http%253A%252F%252Fapps.facebook.com%252Fmousehunt%252Fboards.php&r_url=http%253A%252F%252Fapps.facebook.com%252Fmousehunt%252Fboards.php&sig=ed9d0b75af619c89e5ea993816dc22d0&topic=3466
Ok. I should’ve used bit.ly on that last link: http://bit.ly/5xuVQZ
Mods, would you kindly replace it? Thanks.
What about the Giant Speaker?
22 base luck
Hey, Nice article!
Only problem is that you prove that more luck = more potions dropped per catch, but it doesn’t include the difference in number of catches caused by the changes in power and attraction between the traps.
I.e. The highest luck trap gets the most potions per catch, but what if it only catches half as many as the lower luck higher power trap?
Whee n1 yu lian!!
Does this apply for gnarled curds? As in the luck issue.
Tom, the power of the trap doesn’t help a lot in getting more RB pots anyway. Even when I use my HGRH (which only has 1250 power), I can usually catch steel/granite/bionic mice 100% of the time. So luck is really the predominant factor.
i thought that magma base only has 10 luck?
@Nathan: I am glad it helped xD Thanks
@pmonsterX: Since the speaker is 3 luck less than the 1st setup, I don’t think it would have much difference. You can comfortably use setup 1’s results or setup 2’s results and maybe expect a minute difference in the amount of potion collected. I am sorry I wasn’t able to include that setup because it is less commonly found in the laboratory, or at least that is what I see from the logs submitted.
@Tom: Sprite has helped to answer your doubt, I hope. I gave the raw figures to allow everyone to substitute into the catch rates estimate. Furthermore under the ‘Choice of cheese’ section, I have already substituted the figures into the catch rates estimate and suggested a type of cheese to be used using that setup that was mentioned.
@Kent: thanks xD
@xc: I believe so. Luck should affect most, if not all loots from the mice.
@Sprite: Thanks for explaining. Oh, and HGRH is strong because it has a high luck power, 625 luck power without the base.
What about the ACRONYM + Magma Base? I see a lot of people using that in the Lab these days.
Not much point in using the Dehydration base if you have the Magma, seeing as the stale cheese effect doesn’t actually affect your attraction rate or the number of mice you catch.
@KK: It does! When did I say not. o.0
@Caleb: There are little logs submitted using this setup, so I did not consider it under one of the 6 setups. And having the Insanely Stale/Uber Stale cheese effect is a huge sacrifice of cheeses to the stale effect, thus I doubt it is a very popular setup to choose. However, if you want to compare, it has 35 luck, 1 less than setup 2. That makes little difference or has little effect on the amount of potions obtained. And if you are talking about the type of cheese used, Brie would be a better choice since it would yield more potions than swiss and that potion can be used in catacombs
people with the ACRoNYM might want some stale cheese for ancient, please do not forget. So magma base can be a pretty good choice also.
I use the following setup:
Blingbot/Magma/Cheddar + shield. It gives roughly 60% attraction rate (w/100% catches) and 40% stale rate. It is also the highest luck combination in the game. So in the long run I get both very cheap stale cheese, and also a lot of potions, all at the same time.
doesn’t the ability for mice to drop pots decrease as your rank goes higher?
In this article he talks about 13% drop rate (13 pot per 100 hunts) with hrh-magma-shield-swiss but about a 1 or 2 months ago I noticed about 7%. Maybe the drop rate went down since he wrote this article or I’ve been very unlucky on my 2-300 hunts in the lab last time I went there and made my own analysis.
one thing to rember and indeed tips the balance for me is that brie as your bait gives you a much higher chance to catch the burglar mouse witch also drops a fair amount of brie and i didn’t notice that that was factored in to the calculation. At 200 per cheese this will tip the gold per hunt more to the brie than the swiss. also any info on the monster catch/drop rate with respect to cheese as well. althought the second point may be fairly redundant due to low catch rates with both but as i have never seen let alone caught a monster with swiss in the lab and only used brie on this run but am yet to encounter one.
good artical structure and solid concusions
does anybody know how to get the lucky shield besides donating?? is there another way to get it?
i think u need to add this
Gingerbread House Surprise ( 2200 power )
Power Type: Tactical
Power Bonus: 10%
Attraction Bonus: 10%
Luck: 8
Cheese Effect: Über Fresh
@Math genius(LOL)
If you really need some figures or estimate, the 36luck setup should help.
@Mike
oo, good combination. But won’t Rhinobot give a very low drop rate, at least that’s what I think…
@MOUSEHUNT
Apparently that rumour does not have any evidence to back it up, so lets assume it doesn’t affect xD
@Wolfgang_ferner
It could be possible, but I reckon that it’s just your luck (not your setup’s luck)
@Ian W
if you refer to another analytic (I just found this out today), it is mentioned that normal cheese don’t attract monster mouse. But Burglar mouse do give a great loot profit. So using brie might/should give a better profit sometimes. But I hardly encounter it anyway, so I don’t think it would affect much.
@anthony
try doing the free offers that are available over the ‘donate’ page. I don’t think there are any other methods.
@Eddy Scout
I would like to but the hunts are too little now.I am also trying to get the blueprint(dammit i am spending too much time in festive comet to save $$ for ronza). But if I were to choose, I would rather use hitgrab rocking horse owing to it having a higher luck =D
in ur set up 6
Won’t digby drillbot+dehy base and golden shield have better luck?
just asking, will dhu affect? as in, is there really such thing as dhu? for example, i got around 2-3 pots per day using a 35 luck trap (hitgrab + magma w/o shield). and that is really pathetic. before that, when onli having 11 luck during master (swiss army + dehy), i caught around 1 pot per day. sometimes even none. so is there a difference?
@somehow. yea i found that post a few days after as well but thanks.
@Shawn
It would, but it would have almost the same amount of luck of setup 5, which has 17. And setup 6 actually acts like a low luck comparison too.
@someone with really lousy dhu
Actually it also depends on your own luck (not the trap setup), so I guess if the developers don’t like you, pray hard xD. I had one time using swiss army and explosive with shield in lab, and for 24 hours straight I could not get any potions when using swiss. Totally annoying especially when i wanted to make stale rb for my MVMT. Well if so, then I wish you best of luck xD. So yeah, DHU does I guess.
@Ian W
xD np.
How about CCT/magma?
@Naczyls – there wouldn’t be enough data collected on that yet to compare it to other setups, but I’m sure it would work very well in the lab. However, if you have a higher luck trap such as Hitgrab Horsey or Giant Speaker than you would probably be better off with that since higher luck gives higher drop rates.
Hey guys, I just want to clear things out. The reason why I showed the amount of luck and chose those setups is not by any chance coincidental. The luck difference between each setup is round 6 to 7, and it gives a comparison for you guys. I do not show the difference between, maybe 30 luck and 29 luck since they would probably be the same anyway, right? So like CCT/Magma, this setup has 41 luck, or 34 without shield. If it has 41 luck, then it would be reasonable to say that it would yield less potions than 42 luck setups, but very little to be noticed. Hahas thanks guys
This needs to be updated with the Christmas Cracker/Candycane :)
These numbers just make me sad. I’m getting about 1 RB per 35 hunts with 34 luck. If my 100 hunt logs were thrown in with any of those calculations, it would drop the statistics dramatically.
Nice article.
Thanks for providing data on drop rates/luck–all excellent.
HOWEVER: :-)
The analysis on which cheese to use in the lab is completely flawed in my opinion.
Your premise–namely that the VALUE of a piece of RB is 500 gold–makes no sense.
The COST of a piece of RB is 500 gold (when converting brie) PLUS the OPPORTUNITY COST of having to hunt for long periods in the low-gold, low-points Laboratory, when one could be hunting elsewhere. This opportunity cost is completely dependent on a hunter’s rank and access to other more profitable areas. That’s just the COST.
As for the VALUE of a piece of RB, that’s really got very little to do with the cost–if you couldn’t do anything with RB, despite it’s cost it would be useless and therefore valueless…
No, the VALUE of RB is that it allows you to catch high-gold mice in certain areas, and is dependent on the following:
A) Your trap
B) Where you will be using it
To get the value you have to obtain the gold-per-cheese figure (I guess using Pooflinger, though this estimator can’t be correct because it doesn’t understand how luck works) for the intended area with your intended trap/shield status, and then you have to subtract the gold/cheese figure from the highest profit area in which you could have hunted if you didn’t have the RB. This is the value added per piece of RB. Then you have to multiply this by the number of brie that you can convert to RB per pot at your rank, and you have the VALUE per RB potion. As you can see this value is completely different for every hunter and dependent on a number of variables (outlined above).
Given this complexity, I don’t think it is simple to determine whether it is better for a given hunter to use swiss or brie. Though I would say this–if you are looking to hunt with a strong trap in the Catacombs, it probably is worth a decent amount of gold to decrease the time you are wasting in the lab when you could be hunting in the Cats. On the other hand, if you have access to Derr, it is probably not worth wasting any time whatsoever with cheese of any sort in the lab when you could be making more $$$ in Derr.
interesting article, but the most important thing that people forget is that mousehunt is about patience as well, being impatient with loot drops will only frustrate one even more, in my opinion, patience is the ultimate key =)
How about the Chrome Drill?
i’ve been 2 days in the lab and i just got 1 potion :( i have the forcefield trap and the cany cane base and in total they have 20 luck!! add me Diego Zayas
Further thought:
For determining the effect of luck on potion drop rate, potions/catch of certain mice is a fine metric. But when making other decisions, like what cheese to use, how long to stay in the lab, and whether to hunt in the lab, this metric is of little use.
The metric one should use is:
RB potions/HUNT.
I’ve now looked at actual data in the PF new database begun Jan 2010 for my own decisions.
As a legendary looking for gold to craft ACRoNYM and RB pots to use once I get the ACRoNYM, I wanted to know where I should hunt….
Here is my analysis (touching on weapons and bases available to me)
Option 1: CATS/Oos/gingerbread/RB. ~780 gold/hunt, *USES UP RB*, can get metal
Option 2: MOZ/Sinister/candycane/RB ~940 gold/hunt, *USES UP RB*
Option 3: LAGOON/Chillbot/candycane/gnarled <400 gold/hunt, does not use RB, can get scrap metal (this option is good if you don't yet have ship prints and 12 scrap metal)
Option 4: GGT/2010Blastoff/candycane/swiss ~590 gold/hunt, does not use RB
Option 5: LAB/Chillbot/candycane/brie ~410 gold/hunt, **GAINS RB**
So here's my analysis:
(1)To begin with, when you have NO SHIP PRINTS (worth 750K) and NO scrap metal, you should hunt in the LAGOON with the Chillbot. You will catch a few hydras and with 41 total luck (candy cane and shield), they will drop lots of scrap metal and if you are lucky or wait long enough, the Ship prints.
(2) When you get the prints and 12 metal, go back to the Lab for a bit!! Yes, you are making 410 gold/hunt instead of 940 in the Moz, BUT, you are gaining precious RB. Stats (real data) show about 0.15 potions/hunt with Chillbot/candycane/shield/brie. So how much is a potion worth (see my comment on previous post)?? Well, at my stage with my traps, you could say each piece of RB allows to make 940 gold in the moz/hunt vs 588/hunt in the next best location without RB (GGT). So thats 360 gold/RB. However this is probably an underestimateion, because once you DO get the ACRoNYMRB. @Legendary, you can convert 14 brie–>RB/potion. So a potion is worth 400*14 = 5600 gold. @ 0.15 potions/hunt in the lab, that’s 5600*0.15 = 840 extra hidden gold/hunt in the lab with a high-luck trap!! Therefore, the true value of hunting in the lab anticipating heading to the MOZ with the sinister is 410+840 = 1250 gold/hunt!!! If you have already crafted the ACRoNYM and are just in the lab for more RB, then your values is 1400-588 = ~800/RB *14 = 11K. @0.15 pots/hunt = 1700 extra gold/hunt in the lab +410 = about 2100 gold/hunt!!
My conclusion:
When looking to craft ACRO, go straight to the LAGOON with your CHILLBOT and catch a few hydras looking for scrap metal and getting ship prints without using up RB. Upon achieving this, head straight back to the LAB with your CHILLBOT/CANDYCANE (or magma obviously) and shield, and start farming RB pots–they are worth bigtime gold even with just the sinister in the MOZ and especially with ACRoNYM in the CATS. Hunt here until you have enough potions to create sufficient cheese to (A) make enough gold in the MOZ to afford the mysterious blueprints, and yet (B) Have enough to hang out in the cats for a while after crafting your ACRoNYM. I recommend maybe 50-60 pots: 25 for Moz and 25-35 for use in the CATS after crafting the ACRO.